Planning for a Hybrid Retirement

Planning for a Hybrid Retirement

Justin D. Smith helps executives and successful professionals in their 50’s and 60’s plan for their next chapter,whether they wish to stay in the corporate arena, retire, or blur the lines in pursuit of the best of both worlds.

The transition out of the workforce and into retirement/hybrid-retirement can be daunting for successful professionals.  This week’s guest, Justin D. Smith, shares how a planning process that will help you be more prepared AND will help you to uncover opportunities that you may not even be aware of.

About my guest:

Justin D. Smith helps executives and successful professionals in their 50’s and 60’s, who are at a career crossroads, plan for their next chapter. Whether they wish to stay in the corporate arena, retire, or blur the lines in pursuit of the best of both worlds- Justin helps them explore what’s possible, create a plan, and minimize taxes in the process.

Career Crossroads Workbook:

[00:02] Bobbi: Welcome to UnYielded: Thriving No Matter What where we talk about how to make your next chapter in life your best chapter. I’m your host, Bobbi Kahler, and I believe that the best is yet to come back, everyone. Today topic is one that many people have considered. How long do I want to work? When do I want to retire? Do I even want to retire? Maybe I want to do a semi retirement instead. Today my guest Justin Smith and I talk about this and he shares a process that can help you think it through, including the logistical aspects of it. Now, what I love about the process is that it will help you to uncover opportunities and possibilities that you may not have even been aware of. Now a little bit about my guest. Justin helps executives and successful professionals in their fifty s and sixty s plan for their next chapter. Do they want to stay in the corporate arena? Do they want to retire? Or do they want to blur the lines? In pursuit of the best of both worlds, Justin helps them explore what’s possible and create a plan to make it happen. Hey Justin, welcome to the show.

[01:20] Justin: Thanks for having me. Excited to be.

[01:24] Bobbi: So we’re going to talk about something a little different than what I normally talk about. But when you reached out, we’re kind of talking about how retirement has changed and how our financial planning then also might be changing along with that. And I know that’s your area of expertise. So do you want to tell us a little bit about why did you get into this, this particular specialty, I guess.

[01:49] Justin: Yeah. So I’ve always been helping successful professionals and executives plan for their next chapter. In the past 1015 years ago, that was often the traditional retirement route, right? Work until your mid sixty s and then retire, and then you’re done. And you retire to a life of leisure. But the economic crisis in 2008 and pandemic and all these other trends have gone on and people are realizing, first of all, maybe I don’t want to wait until my mid to late sixty s to have the life I want.

[02:26] Bobbi: That’s right.

[02:27] Justin: And maybe when I do stop, I don’t want to stop completely. Maybe I still want to use my intellectual skills and my intellectual capital and my ability and experiences and apply that. I still get fulfillment and satisfaction out of using that. So what I’ve seen is this trend that’s really building over the last couple of years now as people wanting to forego that traditional retirement model and instead employ what some people call a semi retirement or hybrid retirement, whatever the term is, doesn’t really matter. But it’s just about kind of taking a fresh look at this. And the reason I’ve been so drawn to this specific area is that the stories are just so compelling that I hear from clients and people I talk to. They are at the top of their game in their fifty s and early 60s. But at a certain point they’re just getting pushed too hard. And they say, I need to stop living in hotels and airports and I need to start living and working on my own terms. I still have gas in the tank. I don’t want to stop, but I can’t go 100 miles an hour any much longer. I want to be in control, decide who I work for, when I work, how much, et cetera. And a lot of these folks, by virtue of being successful professionals, have done a good job setting the financial foundation for themselves. Maybe they are, maybe they are not quite ready to fully retire from a financial standpoint, but that’s okay because we can create kind of a more customized glide path plan for people that says even if you’re going to significantly reduce your earnings to again get the best of both worlds, it can still work. It’s obviously a lot trickier questions to answer, and I’ve got a whole planning process that helps people unpack that. But I think it’s a great way again, for people to live the best of both worlds, where you get the fulfillment and purpose and satisfaction and potentially compensation from work, but you get that independence and autonomy and just time that you would otherwise have in retirement. And if you are really intentional, you can combine those to again, have the best of both worlds.

[04:45] Bobbi: Yeah, when you were talking about the, I’m tired of living in hotels. I’m tired of being on an airplane every single week. That is completely where I was a few years ago. And it was like, oh my God, I actually had a room in my house called the Travel Room to make it easy because every Sunday I was packing and that gets tiring. No matter how much you love what you’re doing, that gets tiring. So I love that. I love that focus. I guess if someone’s in that stage of considering this, or maybe they’ve already started down that path, what are some of the things that they should be keeping in mind?

[05:27] Justin: So the first steps in the process, the way I see it, is to really zoom out and think about what is your vision for this next chapter? Again, you want to get intentional about this? Oftentimes we attack this problem piecemail by whatever the squeaky wheel is, we attack that. But again, if we can pause and zoom out and say, in a perfect world, if I got to design exactly what my next chapter looks like, what would it be? And I like to just help people work through that and talk through that and just come up with a couple of sentences about what is my vision for the next chapter? Maybe it’s making a bigger impact. Maybe it’s spending more time with friends and family or some combination of those things. But people often have that you might need to tease it out a little bit, but they have that underlying vision for what their ideal future looks like and we need to tease that out. And once we have that, that is kind of the North Star or where we set our compass, everything else is going to fall in direction behind that. So the second step I like to work through after we have a rough idea of what the vision is, to start to set up different goals that will support that vision. Of course there will be working goals and financial goals, but there’s also going to be goals for your time, your hobby, your relationships, your wellness and well being. All of those things need to be considered and have goals around them so that we can support that overarching vision.

[07:00] Bobbi: Right, okay, so those are the first two steps. Anything else after that?

[07:07] Justin: So after that, that’s where we get more into the numbers. Obviously, I’m a numbers and financial guy. I haven’t mentioned any of those things just yet. But I think it’s really important to again, point the ship in the right direction before we start thinking about any of the tactics and strategies when it comes to your personal finances. Once we do have that strategic direction set, then I think if you are in this camp where you are thinking about foregoing the traditional retirement model or you want to go into semiretirement earlier retirement, hybrid, whatever you want to call it, then I think there’s really five critical financial planning components you need to solve for. I’ll list them quickly and I’m sure we can unpack those. So the first one is figuring out your cash flow. You need to understand where the money is going to come from, what bucket is going to come from, how much you have that you can safely spend. That needs very careful consideration because it’s not all going to come from the W two anymore. It might come from a variety of different buckets. So that is first and foremost what we need to solve. And again, all of these five financial components, we want them to be in alignment with those vision and goals.

[08:15] Bobbi: Okay.

[08:16] Justin: The second financial planning consideration we need to really figure out is health insurance. Most of us have been reliant on health insurance through our employers throughout our whole career. If you were going to go outside of the traditional employment model, you’re going to have to solve for health insurance on your own, and that could be daunting. The good news is that over the last ten years or so with the Affordable Care Act, it’s much more accessible for people to get health insurance. So there’s a variety of different strategies we can pursue there. The third element of the financial plan we need to figure out is tax planning. Look, over the long term, not just how can I minimize taxes this year? It is taking a look now over this entire next chapter. This might be five years, ten years, 20 years and start to map out what are my taxes going to look like over this time? There’s going to be high years, there’s going to be low years. And we want to start to create a plan that allows us to reduce the amount of taxes we pay over a lifetime. And in the simplest terms, that means finding the high years and knocking those down, finding the low years, which there might be some low years if we are taking a big career pivot and taking the fullest advantage of those low tax years that we can. There’s a variety of different strategies you can talk about there, but that is really critical and that can amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars of lifetime tax savings if we’re doing it right.

[09:40] Bobbi: Right.

[09:42] Justin: And the fourth component we need to solve for is benefits, broadly speaking. So if you are employed in the corporate environment, you might probably have a 401K or retirement plan. You might have equity compensation like stock options or restricted stock. You might have deferred compensation. You might have pensions and you probably have Social Security as well. You have all these different programs with all sorts of different benefits and different rules and different timelines. You need to have a strategy and a plan to sync up all those timelines so that they’re all working for you and that they’re all aligned and we don’t have any surprises. So that’s a really big component. And obviously as you start thinking about those other five pieces, your benefits are going to play into taxes and they’re going to play into your cash flow as well. So this is all really kind of an interconnected web of these elements.

[10:35] Bobbi: Right.

[10:36] Justin: And then the fifth element, the last element is investments. My industry, I think, does everybody a disservice by putting this at the front of the train. I think the investments should be more like the caboose. Right. They’re pushing driving the train forward, but they’re not setting the direction. It’s just providing the fuel and the forward momentum for the overall plan. But after we’ve solved for all the other elements, then we can make sure your investment situation is lined up, that you’ve got the right amount of cash reserves and risky assets and non risky assets, so that you can find that right. Sweet spot of growth and safety. That works for you individually because it’s going to be a different approach than probably while you are working if you’re in this hybrid role. So those are the five components that I see people must solve for. There’s probably some others on a case by case basis, but from my experience, those five always have to be solved for.

[11:34] Bobbi: Yeah. Is there one of those that people tend to overlook the most?

[11:42] Justin: I would say taxes because it’s not front and center. Right. Your health insurance that’s going to come.

[11:50] Bobbi: Hopefully you’re going to figure that out.

[11:52] Justin: That’s going to come stare at you in the face one way or the other. Cash flow. That’s going to come stare at you in the face on the first of the month, whether you like it or not. Taxes is something that’s a little bit easier to ignore and just go status quo and say, hey, my income was down. And the silver lining is I didn’t pay any taxes this year. I see that as a huge wasted opportunity. Really? Because let’s say you’ve been a high earning professional, you’ve been in the top tax brackets, and down the road, you might be in top tax brackets, too. If you have a two, three, five year period where you’re dropping down to a lower tax bracket, that is a once in a lifetime opportunity to do some things with your balance sheet, take advantage of those low tax years. So that is the thing where I see the most value add potential is on the tax planning side, again, looking forward, having a long term plan. This is what most people don’t do is they will look at their taxes once a year in April, they’re looking in the rear view mirror and saying, hey, what happened? Let’s make sure we report it. Is there anything I can do to knock that number down a little bit? But that’s the extent of tax planning people do. We need to get our eyes off of the rear view mirror and onto the windshield, look out decades in advance, and then start navigating the path that’s going to reduce the amount of taxes you pay over your lifetime.

[13:14] Bobbi: Yeah, I got to tell you, Justin, so my mind’s working a lot of different directions. So part of what’s going on is I’m thinking about in the past I’ve had and even I still have a client, credit union clients, and oh my goodness, it is shocking to me when I started working with them, how often they’d talk about how bad financial illiteracy is in this country. Even things like your debt to income ratio with DTI and things like with your car loans, how people would just keep rolling over their car loans into the next one. And it’s like you owe so much more than what this one car is worth. So that’s part of what I’m thinking about because I think that finances is not something that we grow up talking about. In my family, it was like you don’t discuss finances with company because it’s somehow improper. Is that something that you see a lot of as well, where people are not well versed in finances?

[14:27] Justin: Yeah, there’s definitely a number of people that don’t have the entire full picture right. Even the people that have done a great job saving and investing over the years. This is really complicated stuff. The tax laws change every single year. Even if you are a tremendous student of personal finance. It’s incredibly difficult to keep up with that. And that’s if you’re an A student on personal finances. Maybe if you’re not an A student, this is really challenging. And again, my industry, the financial services industry more broadly, hasn’t done our fair share in terms of helping educate people either, because this stuff is really complicated. And I think a big struggle is that people, what I try to do is simplify it so that it’s digestible and attainable and not intimidating, but you need to break it down. That’s kind of why I put my Career Crossroads workbook together. And that’s a resource I’ll share with all your listeners that they can download in the show notes. But I took this whole planning process that we’re talking through those division and goals and the five steps and put it on paper so at least people can understand. These are the things I need to be thinking about. And, oh, this 401k provision, I need to be thinking about that or this tax opportunity or this health insurance option. I need to be thinking about all those things. Because again, no one else is going to teach you about these things. You have to kind of take it upon yourself to educate yourself, inform yourself, and be aware of all these different twists and turns on the road, or enlist the help of somebody who’s been down that road before and can help you navigate it.

[16:15] Bobbi: That’s right. What I love about it, too is thinking about the vision for the next chapter and then the goals, but also the five critical components. Because I’ve had my own business since 2000, and that alone, you start thinking about things like cash flow and the health insurance. My husband’s been in the business with me and he has spent so much time working with tax planning attorneys because there’s so much of this and investments and all of it plays into it. But sometimes I think that’s the full time job is what he’s doing because it really can, because like you said, it can change so much from year to year. So I wanted to go back to real quick with the vision for the next chapter and then the goals that support that vision. How often do people know exactly what they want that vision to look like? Versus, you’re already smiling there. Versus I’m not really sure. Let’s talk about that for a little minute.

[17:22] Justin: Yeah. And no one ever has a perfectly crystal clear idea of what it’s going to be. And even if they think they do, almost certainly it’s going to change in the next twelve months. So again, the plan that you put down on paper is not the important part. It’s this process of going an ongoing planning process is really critical. I think it’s an Eisenhower quote that says the plan is worthless, the process of planning is invaluable. I’d say the same thing with the workbook I think going through it one time and writing down your answers and kind of sketching out is a really helpful exercise. But tomorrow the world’s going to change and your personal situation is going to change. And each every day we’re going to get further and further from that one static plan. So I think the shift needs to be to thinking more about this ongoing planning process, realizing you’re never going to have the perfect crystallized vision statement. But just setting a direction is better than being aimless because at least we know where we’re going and then we can course correct for know. If I’m in my sailboat leaving California and I’m trying to get to Japan, I at least know what direction I want to be pointed. If I just get out of the harbor and just start going without any direction, the likelihood that I end up in Japan is very low and we realize that the weather is going to change, the conditions are going to change, there are absolutely going to have to be adjustments along the way. That’s part of the plan. But let’s at least get ourselves pointed in the right direction first and then take it one step at a time.

[19:06] Bobbi: Yeah. Is that something that keeps people from doing this? The lack of a crystal clear vision?

[19:14] Justin: I think so. And usually that is one piece that’s hindering it. But frustration and just all the negative things that can come from the workplace are the one thing that can tip it or situations. We don’t have control necessarily, if we’re working in the corporate environment, we don’t have control over our ultimate destiny. And sometimes we get foisted into this position rather than making it an elective decision, we get to decide on our own. So I see that a lot too, is that maybe the decision was made for you that you are no longer in this corporate position or on this track and you need to come up with a new plan and you’re kind of starting from scratch so there’s different ways that people can arrive there. But again, I can’t stress enough how important is to just start planning, set a direction and take it one step at a time.

[20:10] Bobbi: Yeah, no, I can completely see that too, because if that decision was kind of made for you, you’re probably not as excited about the whole process you might otherwise be. And I think it’s reassuring to hear that a lot of people don’t have that crystal clear vision because so many times there were a couple of programs we went through years ago and it’s like you need to write out your perfect day in detail. And it’s like, well, I don’t even know how do I even begin with that? I mean, I know some of the components, but I remember the one that had a workbook and it was mapping out your perfect day down to like ten minute increments. Like, I can’t even do that now. That’s too much. But I love that it’s not the plan that’s important, it’s the process. So I think that should be reassuring and inspiring for people. So I love that. Okay, so the vision and the goals totally get that. So get started even if you don’t know exactly what it’s going to look like because things are going to change anyway.

[21:13] Justin: Yes.

[21:14] Bobbi: So get familiar with the process. So tell me a little bit about the career crossroads workbook. And by the way, thank you for sharing that with people too because I think this could be helpful.

[21:23] Justin: Yeah, so that is something that I’ve developed and kind of iterated on over the years. Again, I wanted to have a resource for people as I’m doing podcasts and speaking events and webinars, things like that as a takeaway for folks. So it is basically I took the planning process, I work people through and I put it on paper. I worked with my team here to help put it in a nice digestible format so that it’s something I wanted somebody to be able to take that workbook it’s 35 pages and spend a couple of hours on a Saturday working through it. That’s the only commitment that’s needed there. I also have a companion on demand webinar that’s linked inside that workbook so that if you want a deeper dive on some of the technical matters, we cover that in the on demand webinar. So again, they complement each other nicely and it’s something where I’ve talked to a lot of people that maybe I’ve caught them a couple of years into their semi retirement, hybrid retirement and they said, where was this when I was at this career crossroads? I wish I had something like this. So I want to make this available to anybody who might find it of value. Again, a lot of folks that I’ve been coming across that really find this helpful is people that have again had their career destiny and choices made for them or on their behalf. It’s just unfortunate way of the world is a lot of people in their late fifty s and early 60s might not get to design exactly how the last five to ten years of their career are going to go with downsizing and layoffs and reorganizations, end up talking to a lot of people who had their plan disrupted. The good news is that this is a great way to take stock and decide do I want to try to go back into that corporate world? Do I want to just stop completely or do I want to maybe take this in between path that’s a little bit more uncharted territory but it has the promise of the best of both worlds. So those are all the really exciting things I see. Again, that’s why I created this workbook and webinar to be a resource for people and help them get started with the planning process because I think I’ve seen so many people do this hybrid retirement route and just get the most out of life. They’re living their best life. It’s a little cliche to say, but they are truly kind of having it all. And it’s because they took this nontraditional approach. So I want to encourage more people to at least explore it. Right. What’s the downside to taking a couple of hours and just thinking through it? Because oftentimes we get so focused on our one goal, saying, I’m going to work until X age and then I’m going to stop, and then this and then that. But there are infinite number of other paths for you to potentially explore. So that’s why I like to just stop. Let’s kind of survey the broader landscape, take a big picture, look at it, and then see what else might be possible so that hopefully encapsulates the resources there. Again, if somebody works through the workbook in the webinar and it kind of gets them excited and engaged and they don’t know where to go next, there’s avenues where you can get in contact with me as well, to kind of take the next steps beyond that. Because as we talked about, this is really complicated stuff. It’s changing every single day. Your job is to be your expert in your field.

[25:06] Bobbi: That’s right.

[25:07] Justin: You shouldn’t be expected to also be an amateur certified financial planner on the side. So when you are going through these big decisions, often these can be some of the biggest decisions you have to make in your lifetime. I do encourage people to enlist the help of a trusted professional that can guide them along their journey. Help somebody who’s been down that path with other people. Kind of share wisdom and knowledge so that they can understand what opportunities and pitfalls might be there on the road ahead.

[25:36] Bobbi: Yeah, I love that. I love that you put together that resource. And I think you’re right too. I think 1020 years ago, maybe more than that, it was work until you’re 65, work until you’re 68, whatever that might be, and then you’re retired, and then you go play golf or whatever for the rest of your life. And it’s not that way anymore. My one brother in law, Gosh, he is, I think, 74, 75. He’s an attorney. And has he cut back a lot? Yeah. And people keep asking him, when are you going to retire? When are you going to retire? And we were talking about it, and he’s like, I don’t know if I ever want to fully retire because I don’t want to have the same workload I used to have. And he owns his own firm, so he doesn’t have to. So it sounds like this would be a great planning tool for someone who is considering making a change.

[26:23] Justin: Exactly. Yeah.

[26:24] Bobbi: Okay.

[26:24] Justin: Or just wants to understand what’s possible, especially people in the knowledge and service based industries as well, where that attorney is an excellent example. I’ve seen a lot of attorneys do this where you can say, okay, of all the different work I do, I like this 20% the most. So everything else is coming off my plate and I’m just going to focus on that 20%. Maybe I’ll do a little bit more of that. Again, the workload might drop, maybe the compensation might change. But if you can get yourself to a place where you never want to stop working, that changes a lot of the math with traditional retirement planning.

[27:00] Bobbi: That’s right. So that’s a great example. And what do you call it? Knowledge workers.

[27:06] Justin: Yeah, knowledge workers are people in the service, attorneys, and a lot of people with specific functional expertise in the corporate realm as well. You can transition from being the regional vice president of such and such to a consultant that specializes in your specific domain. So that’s probably the number one transformation or route that I see people take is going from the W two role into a consulting role. And in consulting you can again design, exactly what problem do I want to solve, what problem am I good at solving? Then go to the marketplace and market that specific service. You’re already halfway to only doing the things you enjoy doing, and then you’re really skilled at doing. A lot of the other things that might have been on your plate are no longer there because you built and designed this consulting business just for you. So that is probably the most popular route I see people take. And it used to be just the upper echelon of corporate America. You would see going out and serving on a board of directors or doing consulting. Now, again, with the financial cris, the pandemic over the last 15 years, more and more people are seeing that this is possible. It takes some planning, it takes some betting on yourself, but it is absolutely possible and it is something at a minimum, you should explore. What is the downside to taking a couple hours on your weekend and just exploring what’s possible?

[28:36] Bobbi: That’s right. I think that’s a very exciting opportunity and I can see that hopefully people can take advantage of it. What was going through my mind there, Justin, is what do you see stopping people from exploring that?

[28:54] Justin: So again, I think a lot of people get just so fixated on the traditional well worn path and say, I need to get to 65 so that I can get Medicare and then I invest with this employee benefit and I think I need to get to X dollars in my 401 before retirement. I’m ready to retire now. There’s nothing set in stone that says you need X dollars in your 401K, but that’s a story we tell ourselves. So again, what gets people stuck is that’s the only path they see and they ignore all the other paths that might be not as well worn. Right. There’s not big signs on these little paths that go off to the side. But if you stop and pause and take a look around, they’re all over and there’s all these different options. So that is, again, something I see a lot is people have this script of I need X, Y and Z to be accomplished so that I can retire. And if we take an outside perspective, look at it, and I can crunch the numbers for people and say, actually you don’t need X, Y and Z, you need ABC. You could have retired three years ago, or you could have downshifted to doing this consulting role that you think you’re not ready yet for. We could have done that three years ago. So that outside perspective is really important. The analogy, it’s hard to read the label from inside the bottle. That is especially true with personal finances. So having an outside perspective that understands how this stuff works is really important to help you kind of get grounded on what’s possible, what’s not possible, and what are some other alternatives.

[30:37] Bobbi: So what I’m hearing is by going through the workbook and I’ll put that link in the show notes and thanks again for that, that would maybe help people discover, maybe open up new possibilities or options for themselves. Is that a fair way of saying it?

[30:51] Justin: Yeah. Yes. Or maybe there’s a hurdle that somebody’s been staring at and say, I can’t get around that hurdle, so I’m going to have to take a different route by simply just unpacking it and saying health insurance is a great example of that hurdle. People said, I have to work until 65 because I can’t get health insurance or I don’t want to pay for health insurance. Meanwhile, they might have put huge sums of money in the bank that could easily cover a couple of years of health insurance. Or maybe they qualify for the tax credit subsidies that will pay for some or all of that health insurance. Again, there might be multiple ways around that hurdle, but you’re not going to know until you stop, pause, unpack, and think about the alternatives.

[31:38] Bobbi: Yeah, that’s a great example because I bet you that does stop a lot of people. What would be another common hurdle that would stop people?

[31:49] Justin: I think another one is if they are planning to pivot or move into consulting or something like that, just getting started or saying, I don’t have enough time and energy to do my full time job. I’m spending 110% of what I’ve got on this full time job. How can I possibly start planting seeds for the next chapter? Now, that can be really tricky. Again, why it helps to have a plan is that maybe we can unpack and say, you know what, you’ve done a great job preparing. It’s okay to take one step back. Maybe it’s a sabbatical, maybe it’s six months off, a reset, whatever it might be, I think the time and energy people have to look around is just so limited. So obviously it’s a challenge. You need to carve out the time, but we’re talking about the rest of your life here and making the most of it. It’s an investment that’s well worth your time.

[32:45] Bobbi: Yeah, I love that. And you’re completely right when you just said there, it’s the rest of your life that we’re talking about. We probably do have a couple of hours. Although, to be fair, I understand where people are. I remember when I was on the road all the time, and it’s like, my God, I’m just trying to remember what city I’m in. I get it. But it is so worth it when we take the time and we do this kind of stuff because that’s how we really take ownership of our path. I appreciate that. Okay, so you’re the expert in this area. Is there anything that I should have asked you that I did not ask?

[33:22] Justin: I think we covered a lot. And again, the process I put out there is designed to help cover all those specific important bases. The one thing that I think you should ask that you didn’t ask is kind of what are some of the incredible success stories that you’ve seen? So I’ll give you an example of a married couple I’ve been working with for a while. One of them was always in the self employed consulting business, so they had that going for him. They knew it was possible. And then his wife was in the corporate management arena, and she knew that she wanted to downsize, and they wanted to take her corporate expertise in his consulting and kind of marry them together, supercharge them. And to their credit, they took the leap of faith to go ahead and do that, have her leave the corporate arena maybe five years, seven years before somebody typically would. And they bet on themselves and bet on their business. That business they are now. And they’re not the only people I’ve seen making more in their consulting business than they were in the corporate arena and also getting to live a fantastic life. For example, they were on assignment in Italy and Switzerland and Germany this summer doing corporate engagements with one of their big clients. And I think they were there for three weeks, and of those three weeks, they were working three or four days. But the rest of it, they were on a grand European vacation that they got paid handsomely to take and do some of their they got to deliver their expertise, their one special thing that they are world class at. So it was an incredible example of the best of both worlds, where a lot of times people will say, I’m going to work really hard and retire at 65 so that I can go take that European vacation, but why not both, right? Why not do the thing that you are excellent at and couple it with the rest of your life that you want to have.

[35:34] Bobbi: Right. Just be a little creative with the way that we’re looking at these things. And this goes back to something you said a couple of times, though, not just locking into that one story about I work until I’m 65 and then I’m done. So I’m really glad that you brought that up. I love hearing that. That’s terrific. So thank you for that. So I’ll put the workbook, the Career Crossroads workbook, I’ll put that link in the show notes. And how else can people learn about you or social media that they should connect with you on?

[36:03] Justin: Yeah, LinkedIn is a great place to connect with me. So Justin D, as in David Smith. I’m with Savant Wealth Management. There’s a couple other Justin Smiths out there, but I think I’m the only Justin D. So I make sure that’s on there on LinkedIn I have that same career crossroads workbook. A variety of other presentations I post about that kind of topic in general as well. So that’s a great place to learn more. Get in touch me if you want. And also, again, the workbook has ways to get in touch with me as well. If you think that’s the next step, perfect.

[36:38] Bobbi: I appreciate that. I appreciate your time and coming on and sharing this process with us, with us and the insights as well. So thank you.

[36:46] Justin: Really appreciate your time today and hope this is valuable for your audience.

[36:50] Bobbi: I hope that conversation gave you some inspiration and ideas for new possibilities. Something that really stood out to me was the whole thing that it’s not the plan that’s so important, it’s the process of planning that is. So that wraps up this episode. I appreciate you being here. If you know of someone who is considering venturing into a hybrid retirement phase or maybe someone who is simply just longing to be able to semi-retire, I hope that you’ll consider sharing this episode with them. Maybe it’s just the help they need. So take care, have a great week and keep thriving no matter what.

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